tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post115886565523852998..comments2023-04-14T06:24:55.668-04:00Comments on Everyone takes their turn: Us vs. StemTom Gagnehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11466965984472091709noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1161786546869212922006-10-25T10:29:00.000-04:002006-10-25T10:29:00.000-04:00Kind and thoughtful folks:If there remains any con...Kind and thoughtful folks:<BR/><BR/>If there remains any continued to and fro I'll jump back in. I agree entirely with the 'talents' reference. We must work to improve our condition in life. Not to do so is almost is repugnant as the taking of life. Reaching a little its nearly the same.<BR/><BR/>Clearly we must remain engaged in science and medicine. It is the ethic that must be regained. <BR/><BR/>The world I see is full of those that make no attempt to know or engage in the contemplation of right and wrong. No - I do not look for these examples. I receive the daily interjection into my life. Honestly its a far 'noiser' and intrusive lot than the contrary.<BR/><BR/>Having said all that good, kind folk, it appears we may be on the same page more than not. <BR/><BR/>FrederickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1159206686159939952006-09-25T13:51:00.000-04:002006-09-25T13:51:00.000-04:00"The dearth of ethics in scientists that will seek..."The dearth of ethics in scientists that will seek any argurment to get their project forward continues to gall me."<BR/><BR/>If we look only for the bad we'll find a dearth of ethics in any profession, including little league coaching and parenting. That shouldn't require we punish all parents for the transgressions of the few that make the press any more than we should paint all scientists and researchers with the same brush used by Dr. Mengele.Tom Gagnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466965984472091709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1159204407454330542006-09-25T13:13:00.000-04:002006-09-25T13:13:00.000-04:00Frederick says: "We must look not so intensely to ...Frederick says: "We must look not so intensely to this world but to the next and be ready to answer; have we been with him or against him."<BR/><BR/>Frederick, while it's true that this life is temporary, let's not forget that in the parable of the talents, it was the servant that did not improve the situation he was given that was cast into outer darkness. Those that improved their lot were rewarded.<BR/><BR/>To deny advances in medical science on the grounds you suggest would be to eliminate all medicine and I don't think that would be considered good stewardship.<BR/><BR/>I'm pretty sure that Tom is not advocating the destruction of life in any sense but presents a scenario akin to organ donation. Which, to my way of thinking, moves things in a more positive direction.Russel Trojanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08099997476446337420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1159137219127934592006-09-24T18:33:00.000-04:002006-09-24T18:33:00.000-04:00Tom, I took a moment to re-read the marble account...Tom, I took a moment to re-read the marble account. You get high points for attempting to be creative and get the debate out of the old deadlock. But you have flatly missed the point of life destroyed. And that includes the recent announcement of a new breakthrough that would get past the problem. The dearth of ethics in scientists that will seek any argurment to get their project forward continues to gall me. The prior post from Jon states it more cogently than I have the time for. <BR/><BR/>I have no problem with the reality that my body and those of loved ones has limits. <BR/><BR/>We must look not so intensely to this world but to the next and be ready to answer; have we been with him or against him.<BR/><BR/>FrederickAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1159013628783987592006-09-23T08:13:00.000-04:002006-09-23T08:13:00.000-04:00Here is the editorial Happy was referring to: Lawm...Here is the editorial Happy was referring to: <A HREF="http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060922/OPINION01/609220302/-1/ARCHIVE" REL="nofollow">Lawmakers should back ethical stem cell research</A>.Tom Gagnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466965984472091709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1158976888727089132006-09-22T22:01:00.000-04:002006-09-22T22:01:00.000-04:00Tom - I'm sure that most responses to your blogs c...Tom - I'm sure that most responses to your blogs come back at you quite soon after receipt, and mine sometimes do also. I'm glad, in a way, though, that I wasn't able to respond immediately.<BR/><BR/>Todays Det. News editorial (you were ahead of this media curve) puts a perspective similar - though not as interesting - on the stem cell research matter. While I have mixed feelings on this matter. My big concerns are that cells not be "created" or come from abortions, and that in the wrong hands the cells could be used in an attempt to create new life. <BR/><BR/>If REAL science - not just fishing trips based on the pressure brought by some movie star to get face-time for themselves and their pet sickness - and REAL ethics are used in handling these cells, the research should be allowed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1158956656952606312006-09-22T16:24:00.000-04:002006-09-22T16:24:00.000-04:00Jon, Nothing in my article was intended to suggest...Jon, <BR/><BR/>Nothing in my article was intended to suggest the blastocyst is anything less than it is--a person. I wanted first to make sure people understood that a fully-intact person would develop normally even with a missing marble.. er.. blastomere. I was trying to emphasize that embryonic stem cells can be successfully extracted without damaging the cell they're removed from.<BR/><BR/>If there's no harm and no foul, I'm unclear what reasonable objections there can be.<BR/><BR/>The imperative, "Time is wasting," personalized the timeline for me. I have no knowledge what disorder or disease my, my family's, or anyone else's bodies may succumb to, but it can't hurt to get going on the research sooner than later.<BR/><BR/>As far as consent goes, I expect parental consent would be required for any dependent medical procedure whether it be EESC or a trip to the dentist.Tom Gagnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466965984472091709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1158934112867391602006-09-22T10:08:00.000-04:002006-09-22T10:08:00.000-04:00Slip of the pen. I was trying to give deference t...Slip of the pen. I was trying to give deference to your comment about using terminology that may dehumanize the blastocyst. I was intending to reinforce it was a developing person.Tom Gagnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466965984472091709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1158928077502647542006-09-22T08:27:00.000-04:002006-09-22T08:27:00.000-04:00Thomas, I don't know if it was just a slip of you...Thomas, <BR/><BR/>I don't know if it was just a slip of your pen, or if your recent comments/response to russel were intentionally misleading. Embryonic stem cells are not extracted from "eggs," implanted on non-implanted. They are extracted, again, from a blastocyst, a recently new, developing human being. It's extremely important to keep your terminology correct in this debate.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again, —JonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1158926507804531772006-09-22T08:01:00.000-04:002006-09-22T08:01:00.000-04:00I must not have been clear."Can we really say that...I must not have been clear.<BR/><BR/>"Can we really say that the use of non-implanted fertilized eggs is different than abortion?"<BR/><BR/>EESC is using the stem cells from the /implanted/ egg. Not the non-implanted eggs.<BR/><BR/>"I do have a problem with artificial insemination and it's similarity to abortion."<BR/><BR/>Difficult ground but perhaps a separate issue from the ethical question of creating new stem cell lines without destroying a fetus, which is what I think we can be in favor of.Tom Gagnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466965984472091709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1158877048176600252006-09-21T18:17:00.000-04:002006-09-21T18:17:00.000-04:00I do have a problem with artificial insemination a...I do have a problem with artificial insemination and it's similarity to abortion. Our anonymous friend, Jon has a point about terminology. Can we really say that the use of non-implanted fertilized eggs is different than abortion?<BR/><BR/>In the name of consistency and integrity, I'm finding it difficult to support research of this type.Russel Trojanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08099997476446337420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19913884.post-1158874697764255692006-09-21T17:38:00.000-04:002006-09-21T17:38:00.000-04:00Thomas,Your opinion is entertainingly well stated,...Thomas,<BR/><BR/>Your opinion is entertainingly well stated, with a nice, calculated balance of selected fact and whimsy. However, you've fallen prey to a pitfall common to others whom have sought to interject a level of objectivity into their argument. This pitfall is a natural, ego driven, human inclination to bend semantics and to selectively gauge ones objectivity. True objectivity means being open to consideration of all of the facts, not just those that can be selectively chosen to support or enhance one's established preconceptions. <BR/><BR/>The fundamental reality of this issue remains; since the successful mapping of the human genome in 2003, science can now tell us irrefutably—with no consideration or regard for personal, philosophical or religious belief—that a distinct, human, life, (in fact every human life) begins at the moment of conception. How this fact is relevant when considering our Constitutionally guaranteed rights under the 14th Amendment, is key to this debate.<BR/><BR/>The use of designated terminology such as blastocyst and blastomere is a common tactic. It's intent is to essentially deflect this fundamental reality by de-humanizing our references. Zygote, Blastocyst, embryo, fetus; are all simply designated terms that we use to describe various stages of... human development. They are no different than infant, child, adolescent, adult, geriatric, etc... The effectiveness of their usage in an argument such as yours, is directly related to most peoples' lack of familiarity with them. Please check out the new Michigan Citizens for Stem Cell Research & Cures web site at http://www.stemcellresearchformichigan.com/index-1.php Their strategy is the same.<BR/><BR/>You seem like a very bright guy and it's obvious you have a wry sense of humor, which I always appreciate! You also seem to have a pragmatic bent; your parting comment, "Time is wasting," only enhances this notion. Be careful, pragmatism can lead to flimsy rationale. Your assumption that it would be entirely ethical to use genetic material extracted from a developing human, ostensibly to test for genetic defects, but in reality for the purpose of biological experimentation—without that persons consent—is highly questionable. <BR/><BR/>Thomas, thanks for listening! A fellow Republican!<BR/><BR/>JonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com